ROY'S QUAD PROPOSAL

[DOUG]

Ok I remember seeing it somewhere. But me and Joe where talking about it the other day and dont remember the specifics. If you could, can you post the proposal on the site so we can clear somethings up. I looked through some of the magazine and I cant find it.

Doug

[yamadooski]

All I know is that if they dont get 100 quad riders to vote NO at the banquet meeting.
We will have shorter race times.
Im not sure if this has to do with the proposal?

[Karen Jernberg]

Hey Doug and all,

Since I am unable to register because my wife and I have the same e-mail address, I am on here under her name (AKA Mr. Karen).
To find the proposal, scroll down on the FTR main page to "More News an Archives>>". Go to "HS Committee Meeting Minutes 2/7/2004". It is in there. It was supposed to be its own entity and in the new race proposal, but somehow it only got put into the race proposal. Figure that one out. If the new race proposal gets voted down, we stay the way we were. The only people who can vote on these proposals are the voting members of the committees. Everybody cannot just go there and vote. Personally, I believe we need the 2 race Sunday format. There are many reasons, but I will not go into it here.
We fixed Saturday before, we can do it again.
If you have any questions, e-mail me.

Roy J (Mr. Karen)

[DOUG]

Roy,

Thanks I looked and looked and couldn't find it and now I see why. I think everything is a go for the 2 race on sunday so hopefully this will go through for saturday. Only thing I dont like for saturday is this new 1:30 race time.

I do notice something that will probably need to be changed about your proposal or maybe I'm wrong.

The classes ready 0-400 cc then 401- open. Well trust me I love this cause I can still run a 400 ex in the lower class. Even with a big bore kit, since FTR does not recognize big bore kits. It goes back to original Bore of motor. And a 400 ex is 398cc

So Jen looks like you and me might be doing pretty good for next year with everyone else with there 450's jump2: jump2:

By the way Roy congrats on the championchip, you might qualify for the old man class but you sure dont race with them HAHA!!

Doug

[Albright]

so your saying i can legily run my 460 in the o-400 class?

[DOUG]

Here is what the rule book reads

Page 16

Chapter VI
HARESCRAMBLE GENERAL RULES

8. No one will run a big bore kitted bike in a larger
displacement class.


But Phil since your running the AA class next year its 0-open unless your going to sandbag and run the A class HAHA!!!

[Mike Preslar]

You're right, you can't run a 'big bore kitted machine in a larger displacement class.
You also can not run larger displacement in a limited displacement class.
No 440s' etc. in the 0 - 400cc class.

Big bore kitted machines will only be eligable for 'Open' displacement classes.

[Albright]

Thats great now i don't have to spend money on Jens quad so she can hang.But what about the cheaters?
Guess you will be running with the big dogs Doug.

[DOUG]

So let me get this right?

If I have a big bore kit on my quad,(416cc) I am only elligable for the 401-Open even though big bore kitted bikes are not allowed in the bigger displacement class.


It is still stamped 398cc on the motor.

But yet when I ran a 250F with a big bore kit I wasn't elligable for the OPEN class.

Help me out Mike.


Doug Parker

[Albright]

I agree it is a little confusing.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Mike Preslar
No 440s' etc. in the 0 - 400cc class.

Big bore kitted machines will only be eligable for 'Open' displacement classes.


No sand bagging for Doug!:D


Makes me wonder though, what is considered as a "Big Bore"?

[DOUG]

SANDBAGGING HELL

IF THEY HAD AN AA,A,B,C,D,F I would still be to slow for the FF class.

<~~~~~~~~already shopping ebay for a stock 400 motor is thats the case.

Doug

[Albright]

the problem is enforcing the rule because there is no way to tell if its bored by looking at the outside.

[Mike Preslar]

0- 400cc means just that. No machines larger than 400cc in that class.

You also can not run a big bore kitted machine in a larger displacement class.

A 416cc overbored 400cc will be ineligable to run 0 - 400cc and 401 - Open cc. It would be eligable for AA, Vet, Sr., Ssr., Women, Golden Girls.

FTR rules refer to AMA rules when not covered.
Overbores of up to but not exceeding .080 are allowed to remain in a displacement limited class.

I have a feeling many of you will be protesting each other this upcoming season.

Refer to the AMA rules regarding protesting a competitors engine displacement.

[DOUG]

So now I am stuck riding the AA class?

I think your right Mike there will be alot of protest and the thing is how can you prove anything?

Already bidded on a motor on e-bay. I wanted another motor anyways but this gives me all the more reason to get one.

Doug

[Albright]

mines all stock!lol.

[DOUG]

Jens is all stock, so HAVE FUN IN THE AA class cause ill find me a 400 stock motor jump2: jump2:

Doug

[Albright335]

Well, like Phil said...at least I don't have to put a kit in my bike to "hang" with the big bore motors :o

Everyone knows that there will be those riders that have big bore kits and will just keep their mouths shut. Think about it...if everyone was honest about their motors the AA class would be HUGE!!!

Jen

[Albright]

this info needs to go on ftr quad forum cause i'm sure there are many others like us who were not aware of the rules.Plus it should be made known so you don't have people crying that they didn't know.
Honest its all stock!I must have forgot to mention that i changed it all back to stock.you guys believe me,right?

[DOUG]

Ok so which was wrong?

Last year I was forced to be moved (BIKES) from the C open class to the C 250 class even though I had a big bore 250.

Now its being said that if you have a big bore 400 I am forced to only run in the AA class(OPEN).

Someone might want to post this on FTR web site. I still have my posting privlages revoked.

Doug

Oh and honest its all stock!! and I also won the GNCC national in WISP too.

[Roy Jernberg]

Hey Everybody,

I am now a member of society. Thanks Mark.

The original intent of my proposal was to go by the actual CC's of the engine. Big bores go to the class of their engine size. This would allow stock quads to race eachother and modified or race built quads to race eachother. Also, this would allow a place for all quads. Quads have not had the luxury of our 2-wheel counterparts with as many different choices of sport or racing ATV's. We have had to improvise to be competitive. Since the ATVA has classes which are CC specific, I believe this is the route to follow.

Roy J

[DOUG]

As I say I understand where you are going with it Roy, But that is not the way the rule book reads. And even with the new proposal there is nothing in place that still changes that rule.

So I am still left with what is the right answer?

Where they wrong in moving me out of the C-Open class (which btw I was 2nd in points) to run the 4stk class. Or are they right now in saying if you have any kind of motor mods(dont ever blow it up) you are stuck running the AA or Age class.

The anser that was given before just contradicts last years decision at the races. So you can see why I am lost.

Doug

[Albright335]

Okay...I like to think I have some "smarts"...LoL!!! :rolleyes:

My question lies in the "Big Bore" issue ~ if the "modified" motor is within guidelines of the class you are running then I feel it should be allowed. For Instance...if a 400 motor is now a 455, I feel it should be allowed to run in the 401-Open class (A, B, or C in addition to the age and gender classes). I know there are many bikes out there and many are "modified" in one way or another but those people ridining those bikes are not necessarily "AA" riders.

Have I misunderstood???

Jen ;)

[Mike Preslar]

If you all would just read the rule book.


Pg. 10
Chapter III
General Rules
J. Competition Apparel & Equipment
6. Equipment
..............
Classification will be made according to manufacturer's piston displacement marked by the manufacturer on the engine cylinder. Displacement may be increased to the maximum allowable for that class. Cylinders may be over-bored to .080 inches regardless of displacement and still remain in the original class.

*What this means is any 400cc machine over-bored more than .080 can NOT run in the 0 - 400cc classes. Nothing more than 400cc qualifies!

In addition;
Pg. 16
Chapter VI
Hare Scrambles Rules
A. General
8. No one will run a big bore kitted bike in a larger displacement class.

*What this means is that any 400cc or smaller machine over-bored more than 400 + .080 cc may NOT run in the 401 - Open CC classes. Nothing that started 400cc or less qualifies!

AA, Vet, Senior, Super Senior, Women, and Golden Girls may run any displacement they wish. Over-bores included.

The problems will be with over-bored 400's that want to run Displacement classes. They can't.

Doug,
Your over-bored 250 should not have been allowed to run in either the 250 or Open class. 4 Stroke would have been OK since it was not a displacement limited class. Assuming it was a 4 Stroke.

These rules are consistant with every racing organization on the planet.

[Albright335]

Okay.... :o

So, is the AA class a "displacement" class or rider "ability" class? :confused:

If I ride a big bored bike now and am forced to ride the AA class...then I decide to purchase a stiock Yamaha 450...can I now back up to the A class because I was only in AA because of my bike not my ability??

Knowing the quad riders I do nopt feel that if a big bored motor running in a bigger cc class is going to cause arguements of protests....but I guess time will tell...

And, what I got from Roy was that his original "plan" was to allow the cc sized bikes (stock or modified) to be in the same class...not for all modified machines to be in the AA class.....

Just my $.o2

Jen

[Mike Preslar]

Again,

AA is NOT a displacement limited class. You can run anything you want in it.

If you decide to run AA you will stay there until you become old enough to enter a Age defined class. You will never again be eligible to run A, B, or C displacement classes no matter what size engine you run.

I completely disagree with your theory on smaller big-bores getting protested for running larger displacement classes (as well as over-bores in smaller displacement classes).
They WILL get protested if they finish well and it will be ugly. On some courses they will have a distinct advantage. This is why displacement classes are formed.

This is Roy's plan, presented by Roy, and unmodified by anyone.
If it was his intention to allow big-bores to enter displacement classes it was never presented that way and probably would not have passed muster anyway as displacement classes are always limited to a specific displacement or there would be no point on calling them displacement classes.

[Albright335]

To me AA meant that the class included those riders that have exceptional riding ability...NOT a class of riders that have "modified" motors...

Mike...I understand this isn't your problem :) The rules are the rules...I just wanted some clarification and I received it and I appreciate that. I guess the season brings what it brings!!

See ya at the Banquet :p

Jennifer

[Mike Preslar]

AA is a class of ability level, it is not a class for those with modified motors, it has nothing to do with engine size or modifications.

What you're eluding to is those with modified (big-bore) motors will have to run AA even though they are not AA level riders.

Not so. Don't run a big-bore, non-qualified, motor. It's that simple.

It's the way it's done in the 2 wheeled classes for PeeWee, Mini 65, Mini 85, 0 - 200cc, 250cc, and the Open classes. Works just fine.

[DOUG]

Well I have my problem solved, I have a stock 400 ex head that I have bought off e-bay. So I am safe. But I cant wait to see how this pans out this year.

Doug

[Roy Jernberg]

BOYS AND GIRLS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO FTR POLITICS 101 (typed in a dull and boring monotone),

Since quads do not have the variety of choices the dirt bikes have, it was my intention to go by the specific CC's of the engine. Not by what the MFG'er stamped on it. If we cannot go that route, than we can't. I wrote the proposal and am 100% behind it, whatever way it goes.
Will people show up with big bore 400's? You bet! It is an accepted practice in the ATVA. Are we going to chase people away or put beginners in the AA class? I don't think so.
It is good we have about 2 months to get this figured out before the first race. We do not need any unnecessary surprises like the Clewiston situation. I am going to do some research, as I would hope some of you would.

Thanks for reading,

Roy J

[DOUG]

WHOOO HOOO I am safe either way.

.080 over bore on 400 ex is 416 Accourding to the WISECO site. Now I see why they make a 416cc piston.

FROM WISECO
New Wiseco 4628P8 (4628M08700) .080 over (87.00mm bore) 11:1 high compression piston for Honda TRX 400EX. Fits all years. This will bring the engine up to 416 cc. Includes piston, rings, wrist pin, and circlips. Wiseco pistons are known for durability, longevity, and increased horsepower. Innovative forging design and piston skirt provides maximum horsepower and torque.

JEN GUESS I CAN FOLLOW IN YOUR DUST LEGALY NOW.

I am riding every thursday and come closer to August will try to start riding twice a week. My endurance SUCKS. But then again we will only have 1hour 30 min races which will probably equal to about 1hour and 10 min races for us.

Doug